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I could find a copy of The Story of Tibet: Conversations with the Dalai Lama,
written by Thomas Laird (Grove Press, 2006), and I checked the military flag
described as belonging to general Derge Se (his name is written Derge Sey, but
Se is more accurate).
The flag is still different from the Tibetan flag and from the flag of the
Khadang regiment. It is square as the one used by Khadang, but has a light red
/pinky border on three sides except the fly. The color is clearly different from
the red sections. It has two yellow squares and one lozenge in the hoist border.
There are no yellow section and the lower hoist section is blue and the lower
fly is red, contrary to the flag used by Khadang regiment. The sun is golden (it
has not the same shade as the squares) and has only one ray per section. Above
it, there is a golden "Ta" letter (ཏ), and not a "Da" letter as I
initially wrote. Instead of the wish-fulfilling jewels, there is a light red
kalachakra symbol. The lions don't hold it, but they hold something that looks
like the yin-yang symbol which appear on the Tibetan flag.
I therefore think that this flag, which may have indeed belonged to general
Derge Se, represents in fact Tadang regiment, as the letter Da doesn't appear in
the name of the regiment, but there is a Da in "Derge Se". It can still stand
for dapön (general). In A history of modern
Tibet, Melvyn Goldstein states this regiment had served in Eastern Tibet. Derge
Se came from this area and became governor of the lands which fell to the
Tibetan army in the 1930s. He was based in Markham, where Tibet Encyclopaedia
locates Tadang regiment.
http://www.tibet-encyclopaedia.de/moderne-armee.html
Corentin Chamboredon, 20 March 2014
I can't recall whether we had a source for that: Do we know for certain the
sectors are in obverse in both sides? Or could all those regimental flags have
blue at the lower hoist on both sides?
It would seem your image still has one extra ray (which I can't now point at as
I accidentally clicked your message closed).
We may have to do a bit on terminology, here. As I understand it:
- The three jewels are depicted as three shapes next to each-other, usually with
a lot of flame-like aspect above them for being radiant jewels. This is the
upper symbol, that sometimes is supported by the lions' paws (and sometimes
isn't).
- The wishing gem, wish-fulfilling gem, etc., is depicted as a burning ball with
a flame in three directions, an eight-spoked wheel or other round symbol, itself
bearing a taijitu, a gakill, or another supreme symbol. This is the lower
symbol, that is usually held by the lions' paws (though occasionally only
reached for).
Is that correct, or not? (And either way, which remarks need rewording?)
Peter Hans van den Muijzenberg, 20 March 2014
You are right, we are not sure of that. Concerning this flag, I can say for
sure that the blue section also appear at the hoist on the obverse. There is a
color photograph on the following plate, showing that side.
Indeed. I send a corrected image.
Yes, and to make things worse, they both are represented very similarly.
See that page:
http://books.google.fr/books?id=-3804Ud9-4IC&lpg=PP1&dq=tibetan%20symbols&hl=fr&pg=PA49#v=onepage&q&f=false
It can be depicted as a burning ball, or as something very close to the three
jewels, but not as a wheel nor a gankhyil. I realize I perhaps used both terms
when speaking of the same symbol. I should have been more cautious.
http://books.google.fr/books?id=-3804Ud9-4IC&lpg=PP1&hl=fr&pg=PA192#v=onepage&q&f=false
The difference between the two is very small and I think it depends a lot of the
context of the image.
The thing is, the wish-fulfilling gem doesn't appears either on the Tibetan
flag, since there is a blue and yellow yin-yang style thing. A gankhyil is
similar but has three or four swirls instead of two. Instead of this yin-yang
symbol, other things appear on these military flags. Khadang regiment has some
curiosity I couldn't identify, this flag has some round thing but where I can't
see different colors. Mr Shakabpa still talked of a third symbol, the "three
eyed jewel", whis is often depicted as a trefoiled jewel.
http://books.google.fr/books?id=-3804Ud9-4IC&lpg=PP1&hl=fr&pg=PA46#v=onepage&q&f=false
Corentin Chamboredon, 20 March 2014
So, we'll mostly be going by their location, I expect. The upper one can be
the triple jewel, etc. The lower one can be the wishing gems, and associates.
I'm tempted to say this illustrator doesn't know what he's drawing. But
let's limit ourselves to the flags: The wishing gem is the lower one. It,
or whatever is in it's place, is a round base of some sort bearing a supreme
symbol of some sort. Until we encounter the stuff illustrated in that book
between two lions on a Tibetan flag, we can ignore whether that too is meant as
a wishing gem.
But since we know from the description that, as far as Tibetan flag
symbolism is concerned, that is indeed a wishing gem, we'd better use a
description that does include the depiction found there, and similar constructs
found on related flags. That's why I was using that wider description, that
maybe doesn't match the book, but does match what we saw in the flags.
In the same plate, he considers a gakill a depiction of the triple jewels. It
may be that there are locations where this is true, but it doesn't help us here.
Until we have clearer information from a Tibetan bannerist, I suggest we
consider whatever is between the lions to be a representation of the gem, and
whatever is over them a representation of the jewels.
Peter Hans van den Muijzenberg, 24 March 2014
The upper or lower jewel would be much simpler for a better understanding,
indeed.
The "Ta" letter is a strong indication that this is the flag of Tadang regiment,
and since this letter doesn't appear in the general's name, we can assume it
wasn't his rank flag.
Corentin Chamboredon, 24 March 2014
